Since baptism is necessary for salvation and God wills the salvation of all, the Church recognizes all validly administered baptisms, even if Protestant. 662) states that the Oriental Churches and the Old Catholics generally administer baptism accurately; the Socinians and Quakers do not baptize at all; the Baptists use the rite only for adults, and the efficacy of their baptism has been called in question owing to the separation of the matter and the form, for the latter is pronounced before the immersion takes place; the Congregationalists, Unitarians and Universalists deny the necessity of baptism, and hence the presumption is that they do not administer it accurately; the Methodists and Presbyterians baptize by aspersion or sprinkling, and it may be reasonably doubted whether the water has touched the body and flowed upon it; among the Episcopalians many consider baptism to have no true efficacy and to be merely an empty ceremony, and consequently there is a well-grounded fear that they are not sufficiently careful in its administration. To get back on the thread, heres a consideration which might bring our respective positions a bit closer together. Otherwise youre reducing Christian faith to a series of propositions arbitrarily arranged as to their importance (youve demonstrated this above when you presumed to be able to list what counts as essential and whats adiaphora), each of which can be assigned some degree of reasonableness. In other words, its a series of opinions and cannot even in principle attain to the certainty of divine faith. Then of course he was assured by an angel that her pregnancy was miraculous. As you stated C.S.Lewis mentions all of this in Mere Christianity. But others (including the Catholic Church) dont see it that way, and it is no less an error to require what is optional than to deny what is required. So if the Church requires what is not mandatory, then it makes demands of us that are not authorized by God, and this would mean that God has not preserved the Church from errorwhich is specifically what ecclesial deism entails. Youll recognize in it much of the apologetic common coin that Lewis would later utilize himself. But thats because you premise inerrancy, which can only be a result, recognized or not, of the Churchs authoritative witness. (And yes, they knew the possible range of meaning for .) No way. Second, Christs bodily resurrection. So we have learned from Peter, in the Acts, of Jesus of Nazareth whom God anointed with the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:38); and in Isaiah, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me (Isaiah 60:1); and the Psalmist, Therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows., De Spiritu Sancto 12.28 I cannot go into more detail just now, given time constraints and present level of understanding (I will look into the matter though). It seems like Moses looking at the Promised Land but not permitted to go there himself. The Scriptures and the Fathersnotably Augustine, who is quoted more than 1,000 timesare its principal sources. One thing I will say, you asked the question would someone be regenerate if baptized in the name of Jesus and would the Church recognise such a baptism Or would the Church consider it as Gods decision. Putting all this together with the scriptural evidence, it seems to me that the Church has indeed always held to the necessity of the Trinitarian formula. If you check out the baptismal doctrine of Missouri Synod Lutherans today (the branch of Lutherans who adhere most strictly to Luthers teaching) youll see this reflected in their own practice: they use the formula of Matthew 28:19, but also teach that baptizing in the name of Jesus is valid -if done in a context of Trinitarian faith. But I do realize that those who run the blog expect us to stick closer to the thread. Polling shows that for the first time in two decades, a . Whereas I would claim that it only refers to [much of] the Church in the Western Hemisphere, the other churches being mostly Eastern Orthodox. (It was actually held in the church itself, though they would not let him preach from the pulpit.) 1, a. With respect to my brother being added: I dont think this is a substantive variation that would invalidate a baptism, particularly in comparison to the Greek form (which the Catechism expressly approved). (3) St Ambroses comment pertains to the faith of the baptizand, not the ritual form of baptism. In other words, I am not so experienced in interacting with others via a blog comment box, so I hope I am following good etiquette. Having heard these things, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus [Acts 19:1b-5]. The Christians in Samaria, though baptized, still hadnt received the Holy Spirit; they did so only when Peter and John came from Jerusalem and laid hands upon them. He was an infantry officer in the British Army in World War 1, and I believe he was wounded in battle. In the light of that, would you perhaps concur with the following: It does at least _look_ like there is indeed a deposit of faith which has been effectively guarded by the Holy Spirit; it has just been guarded in a manner which transcends any one geographic seat of authority (be it Rome, Canterbury, or anywhere else). Partially because the concept is understood in more than one way (is the regeneration spoken of a presumptive and formal regeneration, or a substantial and real one?). Or to those who insist that the Virgin Birth is a theological statement, not a gynecological one (something I was told by an Anglican priest)? The first category is limited to doctrines believed by virtually all Christians everywhere at all times in history. catholicism protestantism soteriology And who are you to stop him? Others would be expected to defend other sectors. What does seem to be the case is that in the thirteenth century, while the necessity of the universal and immemorial practice was upheld, there was indeed still room for theological speculation. Fred Noltie advised going to your priest or bishop, and that, no doubt, is a good idea. Ditto for Roman Catholics. As a Christian, he decided to defend a broad front. Ill do my best to take them one at a time. Also, see Bryans comment for some elucidation on that subject. But for the vast majority of Protestants, this is just not an issue. What kinds of external evidence are needed to cause the Catholic church to question the validity of intent even if the matter and form seem to be correct? Reply to the first question: in the negative, because despite the error about the effects of baptism, the intention of doing what the Church does is not excluded. These things were established by many decrees of the ancient Fathers and Councils; and the holy Council of Trent denounces anathema against those who dare to say, that Baptism, even when administered by heretics, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, with the intention of doing what the Church does, is not true Baptism. It just means that there exists a least common denominator. This would be impossible for anyone who had been baptized with the correct formula, which is what prompted St Pauls question about their baptism. I just cant shake it. If you are genuinely interested in finding educated, sincere, Bible-loving folks who deny the doctrines that you see so clearly in scripture (and make no mistake, I agree with you about the doctrines), its really not hard to do. However immersion or pouring would be equally effective. I'm sure I'm missing something, what is it? C.S. Is My Roman Catholic Baptism Valid? God alone does that by means of the sacrament. The opinion once defended by such theologians as Catharinus and Salmeron that there need only be the intention to perform deliberately the external rite proper to each sacrament, and that, as long as this was true, the interior dissent of the minister from the mind of the Church would not invalidate the sacrament, no longer finds adherents. Theology isnt about creating technicalities that God is out to catch you on. Certainly in that case the defect of form was due to a change in the Ordinal which was in some way related to the fundamental change in the understanding of the nature of the ordained Christian ministry that took place in England during the Reformation, which new doctrine undoubtedly influenced the form of the Anglican Ordinal (along with the rest of the liturgy). Id agree with what you say about Lewis defending something he didnt believe in _if_ -he believed that it was better to remain in the hall than to become a Catholic. (Augustine taught it in his earlier works, though he later seems to have repudiated it; more important, Thomas Aquinas explicitly taught it.) One more comment, about something you said to Nelson in #36: Theres no room for dispute on the Incarnation, the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, the Atonement, tbe bodily resurrection, and others. You went on to say that you know this to be the case because they are doctrines believed by virtually all Christians everywhere at all times in history.. (Regarding the relation of the effects of the sacrament of baptism to what the visible minister of baptism intends to do, consider further that the form does not say, I regenerate you, or I give you grace, because that is not what the visible minister does. In any event, being a Catholic I accept the Churchs judgment, as such, on these matters. In short, he interprets Baptism in the name of Jesus (only) as a special dispensation given to the early Church. Ive poked around a little more, and Ive found this claim on a few (unofficial) documents for RCIA instructors: An affirmative decision has been granted in one case involving Baptism in the Apostolic Church. If a baptism is valid, then it is recognized as having been done using the correct form, matter, and structure that is needed for the sacrament. The Catholic Church considers Protestant baptisms valid. LATE ENGR. RAYMOND ANTHONY ALEOGHO DOKPESI - Facebook 5 ability to exercise authority Ryan, the whole topic of baptismal regeneration is something which Id like to reserve for another exchange. Why does the Church recognize Protestant baptism if - Catholic Answers And that looser sense still implies the Trinitarian character of the faith and sacramental body into which believers are baptized. As to the baptism of the various sects, Sabetti (no. The Church, following St. Thomas Aquinas, maintains that God has bound Himself to the sacraments, but He is not bound by the sacraments (cf. As a general rule, the Catholic Church recognizes the Protestant baptisms as being valid. Faith Catholic Marital Status Married Politics US-Constitution Jul 8, 2015 #21 CalmRon said: Its not so simple as child care as no one can make such a decision for you. Furthermore, inasmuch as we are obliged to interpret Scripture according to the living tradition of the Church (CCC 113), and since the Church has taught the necessity of the Trinitarian form from the very beginning (with records of it as far back as 100 AD), we may be sure that St Paul was not contradicting the Churchs teaching. It has been said that almost anything can be proven from Scripture and I have no doubt that it would be possible. However if there is a disagreement in the traditions of baptism as seen in Church Tradition as apposed to possible formulas that *might* be found in Scripture , I would think that the Church Traditions would be the correct way to go. His point was that he didnt baptize _with reference to_ his own authority, but rather to that of Christ. He was not in favor of priestesses but he was responding to a particular situation. Regarding your listing of reasons to choose Catholicism over Orthodoxy, since Ill be comparing your perspective with that of Timothy (Father Kallistos) Ware in his classic 300-page study of The Orthodox Church, it would seem only fair if you were to give me a more detailed explanation, sending it to my email address. Here in the Boston area, many since, intelligent and Biblical knowledgeable Catholics are strong believers in the ordination of women to the priesthood. Protestant Baptism Before Vatican II - Jimmy Akin Yes, as an Anglican Lewis was almost Catholic in his practice. Hugh writes, If you should say Christ, you have designated God the Father by whom the Son was anointed and the Son himself who was anointed and the Holy Spirit with whom He was anointed. 4, d. 3). If your point is merely about what usually happens in Catholic Churches, then, yeah, the Didache would consider it less than ideal. Yes, in a rigid way you could say his intent was to baptize, but that intent alone (merely to baptize) isnt the intent spoken of in Trent. (For the purpose of my argument, it doesnt need to be considered strictly infallible, though I myself do hold that view.) 66, aa. Jesus is Christ (Anointed) because he has been anointed by the Father with the chrism of the Holy Spirit. Here is what the Catechism of the Council of Trent says: Those who may administer Baptism in case of necessity, but without its solemn ceremonies, hold the last place; and in this class are included all, even the laity, men and women, to whatever sect they may belong. He did die as an Anglican. You may well ask: And precisely where is that? If his baptism is to be conditional, he must first make an abjuration of his errors, or a profession of faith, then receive the conditional baptism, and lastly make a sacramental confession followed by conditional absolution. Id also point out that the use of the term inerrant isnt an Evangelical eccentricity as the late John Stott put it [among others, E.B. They are valid because they usually meet the three Catholic Church requirements of proper matter, form and intention. Finally, Id have to reject the notion of ecclesial deism simply because I dont consider the insistence on the use of the Trinitarian formula to be heretical. Fred, this is what looks to me like an unwarranted inference. Are you saying that someone baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus nevertheless remains unregenerate -and that as a final and dogmatic judgement? The magisterium has clearly taught on this in such a way as to rule out the opinions of the Lombard and Hugh of St Victor on this point. I do realize that all of this falls short of a papal pronouncement. Youre holding as a certainty, based on your own interpretation of the Bible, what some medieval theologians entertained as a possible opinion, possibly without sufficient knowledge of previous magisterial teaching on the issue. The Roman Catholic Church however, looks upon non-Christian marriages as valid (for instance a Jewish, Muslim or Indian marriage). Heres what he says in his book Catholic Christianity: Luther thought forgiveness was only external and legal (forensic). [source]. >It seems to me that it is unreasonable to suppose thathaving identified a flaw in their baptism by virtue of the fact that it was not performed according to the Trinitarian formSt Paul would immediately proceed to baptize them without using that form. But Id be surprised if Borg used the term in any sense.). RAYMOND ANTHONY ALEOGHO DOKPESI | FUNERAL MASS | JUNE 22, 2023 | AIT LIVE | mass for the dead I dont think Mere Christianity is an emergency manual for anything. Perhaps they have received baptism of desire. ), the form of the Sacraments can appear a bit like that. Valid and Licit Like any sacrament, baptisms must be both valid and licit to serve the individual as God intended. Valid Baptisms Adventists: Adventists (or Second Adventists from the original Millerites)Seventh-Day Adventist (SDA) Grace Communion International (formerly Worldwide Church of God) Anabaptists: [15] From the 1220s until the 16th century, no work of Christian literature, except for the Bible itself, was commented upon more frequently. If you dispute the Church who will you turn to to hear the truth? Thanks for continuing the dialogue. Otherwise all five of us were agreed (p.8).. PDF Valid Baptisms Recognized by The Catholic Church in The Philippines But regarding Peter Kreefts assertion, I must stand my ground. 208-11 (another work I highly recommend).

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